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2018-09-19 Building Quality of Operation Nerf
#11
Let’s not confuse my love of a good argument for worry. I’ll lay off that for now, since it seems it’s getting in the way of things.

My main criticisms still stand, as far as I can tell. I can’t think of any other good features, but I also don’t see any reason to throw out the positives along with the negatives. I do think your idea about better tools leading to increased extraction quality is a good one, since it keeps many of the benefits. I should point out that it isn’t really a form of tech that requires real maintenance though, since it would only require creating a manufacturing process for the tool, which could then be left running indefinitely.

I don’t see a simple way around the permanent tech either, since it is always possible to place a colony tens of thousands of sectors into deep space with whatever you would need to rebuild. Maybe we need the box back.
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#12
(09-20-2018, 06:20 AM)Mr. Mortius Wrote: Let’s not confuse my love of a good argument for worry. I’ll lay off that for now, since it seems it’s getting in the way of things.

Sorry, writing my last post took me over an hour, so most you kinda answered in your reply to Anr.

I can agree with the idea of a replacement system being ready to replace it right away would be nice. But I wouldn't say it is required, I think that getting rid of it now and then slowly planing out a new system is a better option than keeping the broken system.

(09-20-2018, 06:20 AM)Mr. Mortius Wrote: My main criticisms still stand, as far as I can tell. I can’t think of any other good features, but I also don’t see any reason to throw out the positives along with the negatives. I do think your idea about better tools leading to increased extraction quality is a good one, since it keeps many of the benefits. I should point out that it isn’t really a form of tech that requires real maintenance though, since it would only require creating a manufacturing process for the tool, which could then be left running indefinitely.

I don’t see a simple way around the permanent tech either, since it is always possible to place a colony tens of thousands of sectors into deep space with whatever you would need to rebuild.

Technology is basically just the knowledge of or capability to make better tools. Using tools normally don't require the same knowledge or capability.

If you loss access to cryozine you stop being able to make heat sinks, which then makes you unable to make laser weapons and energy shields. That is the best example of having capability to create better technology through resources.

Patents could be considered the knowledge, but it isn't really a limiting factor.
Preferably technological knowledge would be represented by how well educated your population is. Since a simple mining colony won't need anything but the advanced tools to do their work, but a factory on the homeworld would require some educated workers to manufacture those advanced tools. Number of educated workers would get lower the more automation you have access to, which is currently shown as computers increasing production output per citizen.
If you suddenly lose your educated population, you have to relay on your stockpile of advanced tools, untill you have the population educated enough to start tool production again.
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#13
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#14
Patents provide a means for technological progression, in a concrete way.

Their data needs to be adjusted as there are some patents that consume a large amount of materials, mainly because they were copied en masse from the corresponding manufacturing processes.

Progression gating can be imposed by the amount of time each patent takes to develop. All are presently at 5min or so. That was mainly to enable existing players to get up to speed quickly, when the patent system was introduced. The times should vary. The first wave of patents, those needed to get a spacecraft into space, should be quick and easy to develop. After that, they should take a while.

At present it takes what, 45 minutes or so to develop a patent for a warp 9 FTL drive? Perhaps that should take a lot longer.

The building Q system was generally agreed to be bad. It's gone now. We will see if a replacement is needed.
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#15
(09-20-2018, 03:38 PM)Haxus Wrote: Patents provide a means for technological progression, in a concrete way.

Their data needs to be adjusted as there are some patents that consume a large amount of materials, mainly because they were copied en masse from the corresponding manufacturing processes.

On that note, some patents are kinda useless.
For example with the Plastic Flower Pot and Plastic Picture Frame, would be simpler if those items just require the Plastic patent.
Maybe the same with Plastic Sailboat and the plastic tools, it is just an upgrade to a item/vehicle that doesn't normally require a patent, so it wouldn't be unreasonable if those things didn't have individual patents.

Maybe also cut down on the multiple patent processes, for example the Large Rocket Motor can be research using Gun Powder, Nitrate Explosive, or Petrochemical. Could make the patent not require the interchangeable material at all, or simply a user interface that allow for selection.
But a lot of that will be easier if patents weren't using the normal manufacturing system and UI.

(09-20-2018, 03:38 PM)Haxus Wrote: At present it takes what, 45 minutes or so to develop a patent for a warp 9 FTL drive? Perhaps that should take a lot longer.

Yeah, and warp-drives could still benefit from using the tiered metal resources or heat sinks. So warp9 modules required Adamantine for example.
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#16
I notice the loudest complaints are from those who already have Q255 buildings, or were very close.
This should be more fun, as now an empires spacecraft quality is now dependent only on resources available, and their skill with the studio.
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#17
(09-21-2018, 02:13 AM)jakbruce2012 Wrote: I notice the loudest complaints are from those who already have Q255 buildings, or were very close.
This should be more fun, as now an empires spacecraft quality is now dependent only on resources available, and their skill with the studio.

Of course. Read as:

(09-20-2018, 03:45 AM)Mr. Mortius Wrote: To sum up how I see this change: I want a billion dollars, tomorrow, but without putting in any work. That’s not how things work for a reason, and if it were, those billion dollars would be worthless.

The opposite of what you've said is also true. I've noticed that the loudest supporters of the removal are those who hadn't invested time or effort and were far behind because of it. Can you blame those who developed their empires around the quality system for the past year for being a bit miffed?

Equality of outcome over equality of opportunity is always popular. A tax on the 1% will always be supported by the 99%.
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#18
Purely looking at this from the new user perspective I think that removing the Building QL is a good move and different ways can be tried for gating the progression.

As a new user reaches space and starts exploring, they realize that, "hey, i'm flying around in a QL 32 spaceship and it will take me a nearly a year to reach the QL of the existing player base". Even landing on uneven terrain damages my spaceship right now. So if the new player stays with the game and tries to develop but ends up staying offline waiting for the universities and building QL to level up to do anything else meaningful. When that happens the new player says to themselves, why am I paying for entertainment that I can't enjoy?... bye bye SoH.

I don't have an answer for what would be the next iteration of progression or progression gating. Perhaps consider adding some form of online research buff? When the emperor is online the populous is more inspired to work hard? Yes, you'll get the AFK emperors that feed their toon once every few hours, but you'll also be promoting a more active and vibrant online community.
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#19
(09-21-2018, 04:20 AM)Mr. Mortius Wrote: Of course. Read as:

The opposite of what you've said is also true. I've noticed that the loudest supporters of the removal are those who hadn't invested time or effort and were far behind because of it. Can you blame those who developed their empires around the quality system for the past year for being a bit miffed?

Equality of outcome over equality of opportunity is always popular. A tax on the 1% will always be supported by the 99%.

i mean you can blame them for wasting their time on something that would inevitably be removed/heavily altered in a game in ongoing development and actually think that time had any value anyway.

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