Open Floor To Haxus

[Zensras]

You're likely going "Oh hell, not this again" and you would be pretty right.   I'm making this in response to the news we been hearing the past couple of hours about the steam launch that contains both questions and even stuff that NEEDS to be brought up before we even hit steam.  I came back because I fucking missed this game and I was always checking in to see how it was doing. I really want people to enjoy this game as well but there's a few things that really need be brought up. I apologize for how rushed this seems as I have an interview in the morning and need sleep soon.


Let's get the two elephants out of the room.

- Limbo.

Compared to how it used to be back in the day (and the time you went on vacation that one summer), Limbo is still is a problem but not as massive as it used to be.   When we switched back to free-to-play,  There was a surge of it.   Lot of us are just worried about how it will be handled with an influx of new players?   This is also considering that majority of Limbo comes up on the weekend when your on break.   



- The Designer.

Powerful?  Yes.  User friendly?  Not really.   You said it yourself one day in chat that you wanted to do work on it to make it more user friendly.   Are you going to do something for it before the launch on steam?

-  Galaxy size.

I see various opinions about this in Discord.   Some wish the amount of galaxies was toned down.    Some wish there was less distance.    It varies.


And my own gripes

- Patreon.

You told us that the Patreon was making a LOT more than what SoH was doing when the game was on subscription based.  There are people in the community who honestly enjoy the idea of the game and want to keep supporting.  Throwing it away is a waste in my opinion and it should honestly be kept for those who wish to put a tip towards develoment.

You could legit tease future shit on it and have the patch notes posted in the steam community news section.

[Athena]

I think giving Patreon more time is by far the best option. You're already at $500 a month and the game has been steadily growing ever since it went F2P two months ago, imagine how many donations you'll be getting a year from now. Regarding Steam, this isn't the same Steam from years ago. Hazeron is just going to get lost in the sea of 1 dollar hentai puzzles that come out on steam every day and the playerbase is going to be back under 5 avatars online within a month.

Also RIP my multiple accounts I suppose. $25 is too expensive to consider multiboxing, and I personally can't justify $25 to only be restricted to one account either. It was nice playing with you all again while it lasted.

[QuakeIV]

To be honest I could understand saying 'the hell with it, we are going forward with steam and seeing what happens' (i say 'could' because im only guessing as to the thought process).

I'd probably buy it because I've played the heck out of this game so I'd be willing to throw 25 bucks onto the pile. I don't think I'd all that actively play unless the universe got shrunken down a lot though. I feel like I put a fair amount of work trying to help us get established in the current universe and don't really feel like putting in the effort to get re-established in an effectively identical one and to then have to re-attack the problem of trying to detect people over huge distances only after several more months of re-building everything. I'm calling out galaxy size in particular since I think it would be relatively easy to change upon galaxy reset, but really any particularly exciting new feature would be what I would kindof be hoping for to re-engage after having only been able to play the previous universe for a few months,

[Yukondano2]

The model we're talking about moving to isn't sustainable. Shores of Hazeron relies on a bunch of oddballs that, for whatever reason, click with this game like no other. They play it for extended periods of time. A one time payment of $25 doesn't cover that, considering how small the player base is the burst of money you'd get would be comparable to a month of patreon money. Maybe, maybe two months. I agree with Athena on the game getting buried, most of the general public is going to see its instability and just jump to something like Starmade, or Space Engineers or something.

I just don't think this kind of game will survive the transition. The current development path doesn't show signs that the core issues are going to be fixed, so anyone that does their homework on this thing is likely to be turned off. It's quite niche. I don't know how to put this in a way that will be considered, because I'm aware these ideas have been opposed in the past, but either a source code release or the release of a functioning server application would mean the success of the project isn't reliant on a central server. Your work could focus solely on the code, less hardware stability issues and server uptime. Both would allow modification from other people, and considering how intricate this is I could see it attracting people with the patience to figure it out and address many issues. No need to hire a minion if people work solely out of the desire to show their vision, for free.

That's pretty much the opposite of what you're planning, and I know you lean towards older software industry trends in terms of development. But, I just don't think this is working. And it's sad because I've been playing this thing daily for a bit now because it clicked with me, this game's done a better job filling a weirdly specific niche of the big space MMO than anything else I've seen. It's just that, there's a reason almost every conversation I have with people on the Discord or in Galactic Chat eventually comes to complaints about bugs and confusion about why things haven't been addressed. If nothing else I want to dive into this code and find out precisely what the hell is going on.

[se5a]

Ok so I'm going to try lay out my thoughts and frustrations here, I'll try to not come across as a whiny bitch, but I fear such is inevitable with such a post.

I'm not intending to buy the steam version, the game is just not polished enough, it's too broken with too many bugs. it's still very much "beta" software, and as I understand it, is not even going up as EA (which is going to cause massive perception issues, for the stated reasons).

I've not gotten on the patreon wagon, due to similar reasons, and because I don't see much improvement happening. maybe this is due to not being able to see what has been fixed without actually jumping on said wagon, and just bad memory from when I used to play back before it went pay.

I played way back in the day before it went pay to play, and kept an idle eye on it since, I noticed it went free to play again and jumped back in to see what had changed and was frustratingly disappointed. maybe it's just my memory but I feel that little has improved. Many of the issues that plagued the game back in the day are still there, with more broken or half implemented features added, including:
Sex: why for gods sake, what does that add really? other than yet another reason for me not feeling inclined to recommend the game to friends/family.
New Designer: Ok this one was talked about before it went pay, and I was interested back then it what could be made of it, I had some hopes it would have been implemented around some sort of subsystem thing where those actually capable of designing things could make rooms and modules and others could arrange/snap those in different places to get different looking ships, a lot of reuse from the not unreasonable amount of effort one has to put into a modelling/cad to get something looking not terrible. one of the arguments *for* this type of designer if I remember correctly was that it would allow player designed vehicles (cars, boats, planes, fighters etc) which doesn't appear to have happened. As it stands the new designer is a step backwards in game play. instead of taking a couple of minutes to design your first shuttle, it takes hours or days depending on how good you want it to look or how skilled you are at the designer. (and goddammit why does the camera have to have physics? this is the only cad/modelling software I've seen with a camera that doesn't stop instantly you release the key.)
Gen4: again, why? I don't see much improvement there over the old.
The horrible "Lands" system which does nothing but cause frustrations when whole cities disappear without warning.
Asteroid doomsday: this is sort of a good idea, but majorly hampered by anything but beam weapons being usable, which are kind of higher tech.
New research mechanic: ok this one I actually like, having the research tech level matter is kind of cool.
Designs are saved to avatars not the player.
Designs get downloaded every time you log in, and sometimes get stuck downloading. it's not cached and hash checked.
Game rules/changes to game rules are hidden behind a paywall
Broken stuff that hasn't changed:
Various bad UX: there's a whole shitton of low hanging easy fixes that could be done here, but I think there's a hell of a lot of stockholm syndrome going on so it's not noticed by people who stick around long enough, but quickly frustrates newer players.
Bug forum does not promote good reporting, you cant even upload a screenshot.
Bugs/issues rarely get a response or acknowledgement.
Janky first person low physics update frequency: when you first start off, unless you're clued up enough to start with wings and hover, you get eaten by stuff fairly frequently, and due to the horrible physics of other critters its extremely hard and unfun to try defend yourself. even if you have a decent weapon.
Janky ship combat low physics update frequency: I only fought pirates, which was pretty boring and unfun, my first attempt was with ballistics and missiles which rarely even connected. the enemy ship looked strangely distorted when I did see it. a better camera angle would be nice here, and not looking like a slideshow.
Ships Atmo/Sun diving for no reason.
Ships getting stuck going around in circles around wormholes.
The occasional rollback.

I really think Haxus needs to look at how DwarfFortress has done things and how Tarn and Zach are managing their steam release, I think there are some parallels between the two projects (size and scope, a small team, etc) I believe much of the success of DF are as follows:
a: They're pretty dedicated at fixing prominent and annoying bugs.
b: They give a hell of a lot of feedback with the community.
c: With the steam release they've identified what they're not good at and or unable to do on their own and have gotten others in to help.

[Celarious]

In my opinion, Steam and a one-time purchase won't be sustainable. For one, the server cost is monthly, and a one-time purchase means you'll get the amount of money you're currently making from patreon for a month, if even that, before it dries up.

Another issue is the updates over time. Since universe 3, I don't really think the game has improved all that much. Sure, things like client-side movement smoothing are nice, but server crashes, bugged audio, bad client performance, lag, AI sundiving and more all still there from way back when. Also, the universe got expanded and more galaxies got added, which in my opinion doesn't really add much aside from being cool, and only spreads out the already thin playerbase even further. The new designer is cool and all, but it's completely locked off ship designing to all those but the most patient and skilled. It's borderline unusable, and I think it takes away more than it adds. And I'm saying this as somebody who actively supported it while it was being developed. I used to design my own ships with the old designer, but now it's just not an option with how annoying and fiddly the new designer is, ESPECIALLY on interiors. A design which took a few hours now takes multiple days.

Same thing with new cities and buildings. sure they look cool, but they cause huge client-side FPS drops, in many cases server-side locks and crashes, and are prone to being exploited with invisible buildings, buildings that have trillions of HP or designs intended to crash the client due to extreme poly counts. They also result in inconsistent style if you're not designing your own buildings, since a single person might not have created a design for every industry or use. The old buildings and cities were simple, and as far as I can see, more players care about that than the infinite design potential which may never get realized.

Gen4 avatars were never finished. It's a bit sad to see time being spent developing unfinished features like this and then being dropped, instead of being spent on fixing old issues from Universe 3. Also, Gen4 are pretty much agreed to be worse than the old gen3.

Similar to gen4, many other aspects of the game like even the new designer are unfinished. In my opinion, the time used to make these unfinished features could have been spent fixing old bugs and crashes, and making improvements elsewhere.

Obvious things like hash checking and caching aren't even being considered, which I'd argue is borderline necessary if any sizeable playerbase starts playing. Imagine having to download 200MB of designs every time you login, eventually increasing to gigabytes. That's just not gonna work.

And more. All of this is shown by the fact that minimal player activity and wars have occurred since these changes started happening, which is right after the Box was removed in Universe 5. The average players online count sat around 2 for literal years, with no combat activity happening during this time. Many old members like most of Syndicate refuse to start playing again due to things like the new designer usability. As a result, even after the return to f2p, the playercount is still low by comparison.

Also, as Athena mentioned, Steam has literally 200+ game releases per day. They're all unknown puzzle games which never get played or noticed, and Hazeron will have to contend with these and hope it doesn't get buried under the ocean of such releases. Steam isn't the way it used to be in 2011 and before where being on it meant free marketing, as now there's literally millions of unknown games being flooded onto it. It's worrying since most players who see the game are probably going to download and try it, notice the UI, client performance, lag, and instability, and then just leave right after. If you're lucky, they might not request a refund, but if they do, that'll be expensive since it's on the developer to refund the full amount, including the 30% which went to Valve. On top of that, Steam has a review system. If the majority of reviews the game gets are negative, that's essentially death for any game unless HUGE changes occur. All of that is even assuming the game gets seen by more than a few players, which is unlikely considering the recent releases pages on Steam.

And finally, because many of us are unable or unwilling to pay the $25 upfront cost, the playerbase is probably going to drop back down to the p2p days. 2 to 5 online, and it'll be stuck at that for years. It's just hard to justify $25 when the game hasn't seen that much improvement, and when there's a risk that it may shut down at any point if Steam doesn't work out.

[Zensras]

To be quite honest, I'll personally put in the 25$ but I geniune worry about the future of the game. I know Haxus wants to see his baby get popular and lot of us do as well. I came back with some other Syndicate members but we had a *lot* who didn't want to come back at all due to the designer as someone had mentioned.

[OnePercent]

Releasing the game as "Finished" is not going to end well with random people who buy your game on steam.

If you HAVE to release it without an early access tag, at least make it OBVIOUS to the buyer that what they're buying is a buggy BETA program, because they will poorly review your game as being misleading and unfinished if you aren't transparent enough.

[Haxus]

Free to play, hoping for sufficient donations on Patreon, isn't a sustainable business model. The amount was encouraging but 20% of that was being paid by one player. Thank you Jakbruce2012.

I checkmated myself by setting up a Patreon account. I did not consider what would happen when I went to Steam. The old pay-to-play system via PayPal would have been more harmonious with Steam. Then I could have kept both systems of payments. Now I will likely use Steam exclusively, for purchases and distribution.

Also, I was painfully reminded of one huge problem with free to play. It allowed griefers to drive players away without consequence. One of the most demoralizing aspects of developing a game like this is the spiteful people who willfully try to destroy what you have built, even making it their personal mission in life.

The one-time $25 fee was kind of a trial balloon to see what people thought of the idea. Many of you expressed what I have always felt, that the continuous nature of game play called for a continuous system of payments. The one-time-fee idea might be abandoned. A monthly fee makes more sense.

However, if the monthly fee is $10 but most people play for less than three months, a $25 fee might be a better choice. Or maybe a $20 download fee then a $5 per month maintenance fee.

I have been working toward a Steam release for a long time. If not for that goal, I probably would have abandoned the project some time ago. That goal has kept me going. I was ready to quit at the end of last year but I couldn't do it without having at least tried Steam.

I know I'm going to take it in the face on Steam. It's the way I have gone through life. I don't ask permission to do anything. I do what I want to do. An old friend used to say, "The school of hard knocks has a high tuition." Was that a warning?

A change is needed. My flight instructor taught me: when things aren't going the way you want, make a change. Then wait to see the result. That rule has saved my life, literally. If you want to find out if the reaper is waiting to cash in your chips, take flying lessons; you'll give him the opportunity.

So this move to Steam represents a change, hopefully for the better. I expect turbulence. I just hope Shores of Hazeron survives the initial onslaught. If player numbers look encouraging, I can add servers. The architecture is highly scalable. It just takes more computers.

Steam is a great platform. It supports Windows and Linux (Ubuntu). Their method of updates is really slick and efficient, both from the developer side and the app store side. More people will try Shores of Hazeron just because of the visibility and their trust in downloading software from Steam. It's a big leap for people to download a program off the Internet and run it; some would call it suicidal.

The poll is showing a preference to restart the database, currently 13 to 9. It is easier to keep the universe database than to restart it.

There is possibly a technical reason to force a restart. I was toying with the idea of restructuring the universe so the pvp and pve dimensions each have 10 galaxies. It was encouraging to see similar comments from players. It's a lot of space for both dimensions and then it doesn't give the impression that the pve dimension is somehow less than the pvp dimension.

[Zensras]

Also, I was painfully reminded of one huge problem with free to play. It allowed griefers to drive players away without consequence. One of the most demoralizing aspects of developing a game like this is the spiteful people who willfully try to destroy what you have built, even making it their personal mission in life.

I feel like this stems from an incident that Syndicate was involved in several weeks ago and I will openly say that this person in general tried to make it sound like that you and dean would personally rollback any of their systems if any empire had attacked them or something much worse. Th This or the whole thing with Dean being hunted which he personally finds funny.

This isn't something that has been going on during the F2P era either as there was people hunting down new empires entirely during the P2P time. From my own experience in other games, Griefers will still come even if there is a price tag.

You been working on the game for years even in the roughest of times and I applaud that. Some people like the idea but are just worried about the future in general.