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+--- Thread: 2022-01-13 FYI (/showthread.php?tid=2612)
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Greydog - 01-16-2022
I've never thought that forcing players into certain action was the best way of recruiting and retaining them. (although I do agree that it is sometimes necessary) IMO choice paired with encouraging those actions was always the better option. I have found that even if start in the frontier its not that difficult to find the core empires. Once you have warp you explore along the axis's toward the galactic center and empires turn up sooner than you think. Once located you can build forward outposts and stage your assets there.
It's size has always been the beauty behind the "SoH verse". Just knowing that there are others out there that you can go and find if you want to is reason enough for many such as myself to pay the price of admission.
As to the notion that the SoH galaxy should be tailored to PvP'ers and that solo'ers should go elsewhere, I strongly disagree. It should be the galaxy with the most choices. Whereas some of the other galaxies could be tailored to more narrow choices. You could turn a galaxy into a large battleground with a lot of raid-like features for those who like lots of fast action or a peaceful one where conflict is suppressed by The Organians or something.
It's supposed to be a sandbox, lets keep it that way.
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Wincil - 01-16-2022
(01-16-2022, 05:50 PM)Greydog Wrote: I've never thought that forcing players into certain action was the best way of recruiting and retaining them. (although I do agree that it is sometimes necessary) IMO choice paired with encouraging those actions was always the better option. I have found that even if start in the frontier its not that difficult to find the core empires. Once you have warp you explore along the axis's toward the galactic center and empires turn up sooner than you think. Once located you can build forward outposts and stage your assets there.Isn't the pay to play a thing of the past? I would think freemium is a better business option.
It's size has always been the beauty behind the "SoH verse". Just knowing that there are others out there that you can go and find if you want to is reason enough for many such as myself to pay the price of admission.
As to the notion that the SoH galaxy should be tailored to PvP'ers and that solo'ers should go elsewhere, I strongly disagree. It should be the galaxy with the most choices. Whereas some of the other galaxies could be tailored to more narrow choices. You could turn a galaxy into a large battleground with a lot of raid-like features for those who like lots of fast action or a peaceful one where conflict is suppressed by The Organians or something.
It's supposed to be a sandbox, lets keep it that way.
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Yurk Embassy - 01-16-2022
(01-16-2022, 05:50 PM)Greydog Wrote: It should be the galaxy with the most choices. Whereas some of the other galaxies could be tailored to more narrow choices. You could turn a galaxy into a large battleground with a lot of raid-like features for those who like lots of fast action or a peaceful one where conflict is suppressed by The Organians or something.
It's supposed to be a sandbox, lets keep it that way.
The issue with that is that there aren't enough players to make those various domains lively. It would only split activity. SoH is a sandbox in which everyone should be able to interact or bump into others, willingly or not. We ain't saying "small Box where you will never be able to hide and chill," we're just arguing: "single galaxy, potentially smaller as in one fourth of its current size, which would be better for PvPers and diplomacy enthusiasts, while keeping the more solo/hiding-oriented players entertained.
Compromise is key. Not exactly what PvPers who enjoy absolute, constant chaos want, but not sheer, endless solitude either. Something in between. A MMO should most definitely not encourage features like "20 galaxies for 200 players at most", as it causes everyone to hide away because "muh me not want take risks". Online SoH with no risks doesn't exist--and that's fine. It wouldn't be interesting if it were 100% safe; there would be no stakes, no challenge, no point in being cautious or playing smart. It's just like playing GTA Online, never turning on Passive Mode, and expecting nobody to attack you.
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Wincil - 01-16-2022
I would strongly disagree with the notion that the SoH galaxy should be just tailored to PvP'ers and and diplomacy enthusiasts don't think that's what the issue is I It should be their choice to be able to interact or bump into others it shouldn't be forced because that's a choice I would aslo strongly disagree with the notion that a mmo should not encourage features like "20 galaxies for 200 players at most" I don't think 20 galaxy's would be tailored for 200 players or the galaxy scale so what's the point.
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Deantwo - 01-16-2022
Why do people keep saying Hazeron is or isn't a PvP game? Even if the universe was made smaller it wouldn't be any more of a PvP game than it already is. That is literally why Haxus is fiddling with the noncombatant protection feature and why the few of us are talking about changes to war and conquest. If war and conquest becomes more relaxed and show, players would find other ways to deal with unwanted neighbors and defenders would have a change to request help from friendlier neighbors.
But if people really want to hide in the rim of the galaxy, let them do it. It doesn't matter as they clearly don't want to interact with others anyway. But after a while they might create embassies closer to populated space start interacting with people.
My only issue with the many other galaxies has always been the fact that there isn't any point to go to them. There is no risk verse reward, aside from what is supposed to be tougher pirates and less player neighbors. But also the major choke point that is the intergalactic wormholes at the center of the galaxy makes it hard to travel there and back. I would love to see new long distance wormholes or maybe even random temporary intergalactic wormholes appear at stellar black holes.
Other ideas like "space dungeons" would be cool too, but a little off-topic so here is a link: (Idea thread) Space Dungeons
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Yurk Embassy - 01-16-2022
Alright then, I'll genuinely try and debate with you. But be advised: if all your next message contains is a copy-paste of what others have written or just "I disagree and you're wrong when you say that," I'll just stop addressing your answers.
(01-16-2022, 06:43 PM)Wincil Wrote: I would strongly disagree with the notion that the SoH galaxy should be just tailored to PvP'ers [...]
Not what I argued. I'm saying PvPers shouldn't be neglected, which is entirely different. Com-pro-mise. Online game, shared space, shared interests; everyone should be invited to fit in. Matter of fact: you won't be stopped from fitting in in a smaller galaxy, as it will remain huge enough for you to not even notice it.
(01-16-2022, 06:43 PM)Wincil Wrote: [...] and diplomacy enthusiasts don't think that's what the issue is [...]
I'm sorry but you are wrong. Not everything is opinions, some elements are fact. The fact here is that players who feel inclined towards diplomacy, such as Staines, Martianant, Celarious, have manifested their wish for a smaller map more than once on the Discord, as recently as yesterday. On the forum, several messages and topic have been made on that regard, for years, which have never truly received the attention they deserved. As evidence, here are a few messages that literally took me five minutes to find. You can see they were poster in November 2019. That's a while ago, and that looks like quite a lot of folks agreeing on the idea of a shrunk down galaxy:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/611983834069598235/932352445294723072/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/611983834069598235/932350923227922482/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/611983834069598235/932351535726329936/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/611983834069598235/932351779427979264/unknown.png
On that point, I don't really see anything to discuss. Diplomacy enthusiasts DO think a smaller map would be best, and have thought and said so for quite some time now.
(01-16-2022, 06:43 PM)Wincil Wrote: It should be their choice to be able to interact or bump into others it shouldn't be forced because that's a choice
I would like to ask you, genuinely: why play a MMO game if you want to be able to be legit 100% impossible to find for other players? I dare you to find any concrete counterargument to the fact a MMO (Massively MULTIPLAYER Online) is meant to set en emphasis on multiplayer interactions. I doubt you'll find any: MMO is meant to be multiplayer, as the name implies. Therefore, yes, you're gonna be forced to meet other players sometimes. It's your choice to play an online game or not, but once you're playing said online game, do not complain about there being other players near you.
(01-16-2022, 06:43 PM)Wincil Wrote: I would disagree with the notion that a [MMO?] should not encourage features like "20 galaxies for 200 players at most"
No argument here. You just took my words and said "I disagree with them." See above.
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Dean, Wincil here seems to be the only one who keeps repeating again and again that SoH "isn't a PvP game" even though it's technically wrong, and despite the fact this is not the question we're raising in the first place. Shrinking down the map is about making more interactions happen. That won't stop solitary people from going into rim and play far away from everything if they want, but it will make the game more enjoyable for people who actually want more interactions between empires. It ain't only about PvP, it's about diplomacy overall. I'm sure you'll agree with me about the idea that the purpose of a multiplayer game can hardly be achieved when absolutely everyone is isolated from one another.
And as you said yourself: it'll be easier to add more sectors later if it doesn't work, than to remove them when the map already exists as a huge entity. So why not simply give it a try and let it prove beneficial or not, then adjusting according to our observations or leaving it as it is if it proves better? Again, Haxus's call, but I'm puzzled as to why this topic is subject to that much debate in the first place. Those of us who were there from at least the Box to last Universe, have seen what a huge map ends up like.
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Wincil - 01-16-2022
They're are opinions not facts I didn't say shores of hazeron isn't a pvp game it's more than just a pvp game Its a sandbox game let's just leave it with that it doesn't have to be just about diplomacy it's not just a war game stop twisting my words it is his game btw.
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Deantwo - 01-16-2022
(01-16-2022, 07:31 PM)Yurk Embassy Wrote: Dean, Wincil here seems to be the only one who keeps repeating again and again that SoH "isn't a PvP game" even though it's technically wrong, and despite the fact this is not the question we're raising in the first place.
As far as I remember Wincil does have some social issues, so better to just not think badly of it. Yes the constant repeated messages that don't further any discussion is annoying, so just ignore it.
(01-16-2022, 07:31 PM)Yurk Embassy Wrote: ... as you said yourself: it'll be easier to add more sectors later if it doesn't work, than to remove them when the map already exists as a huge entity. So why not simply give it a try and let it prove beneficial or not, then adjusting according to our observations or leaving it as it is if it proves better? Again, Haxus's call, but I'm puzzled as to why this topic is subject to that much debate in the first place. Those of us who were there from at least the Box to last Universe, have seen what a huge map ends up like.
If Haxus wants to give it a try again, I am fine with it. The time of "The Box" was fun, but most of that is probably just fond nostalgia as it was right after the dark period. Interest did start dying out before the box was opened as people started to feel crammed and oppressed by Syndicate.
I would rather we work on making sudden attacks from large empires less devastating and fast. If eliminating another empire is more of a hassle than helping them relocate, we will see less reasons for newbiestomping and more diplomacy. For example attacks on a much smaller empire could be automatically broadcast to everyone within range, letting people know what is happening even if the defender is inactive, that way neighboring empires have a chance to mount a united defence against the attacker if they become more aggressive.
But we also still need more reasons to actually interact with other empires. We can trade with each other now, but that is only gonna be useful early on where everyone is still surveying for better resources for themselves.
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Deantwo - 01-16-2022
Aside from the war and conquest topic, I think it would be a lot more important to discuss the questions that Haxus asked us. How should empire creation work and what business model would work.
I assume Haxus still wants to have a small monthly subscription fee. Since he mentioned that it kept some of the more troublesome players away and lowered the chance of a player creating many accounts for malicious intent.
With the idea of buying the right to create an empire for something like $10, the monthly subscription fee could probably be lowered to $2-5 or something.
Or maybe an account could be a one-time purchase too, and then you buy the right to create an empire after that. Taking donations while having the game/account/empire be a one-time purchase does however seem like a good idea.
The point is, Haxus hasn't liked the idea of taking donations alongside selling the game in the past. I am not sure if there are legal reasons for this or if it is just personal principal.
The Patreon did do pretty good last time, even if the reward tiers were a little mismanaged. I am sure that a new Patreon could work fine if just left as optional and to the side. It doesn't even have to have any other rewards than "name in credits" for starters. The first milestone could be "if we reach $1000/month (or whatever) we won't need a monthly subscription fee for the game".
RE: 2022-01-13 FYI - Greydog - 01-16-2022
(01-16-2022, 07:03 PM)Deantwo Wrote: Why do people keep saying Hazeron is or isn't a PvP game? Even if the universe was made smaller it wouldn't be any more of a PvP game than it already is. That is literally why Haxus is fiddling with the noncombatant protection feature and why the a few of us are talking about changes to war and conquest. If war and conquest becomes more relaxed and show, players would find other ways to deal with unwanted neighbors and defenders would have a change to request help from friendlier neighbors.Yeah, that's kinda the point I was aiming at. Galaxy size really has less of an effect on the PvP than mechanics do. Warfare on this scale should be more strategy than blitzkrieg anyway. Blitz your neighbors to start or use the battlefield galaxy that I suggested for quick action if that's what you're looking for. Galactic warfare should be more long term strategy. Have avatars dedicated to scouting and exploration. Use diplomats and spies to acquire more knowledge. An Avatar can fly as long as there is fuel in the tanks and can go quite a distance in a day or two.
But if people really want to hide in the rim of the galaxy, let them do it. It doesn't matter as they clearly don't want to interact with others anyway. But after a while they might create embassies closer to populated space start interacting with people.
My only issue with the many other galaxies has always been the fact that there isn't any point to go to them. There is no risk verse reward, aside from what is supposed to be tougher pirates and less player neighbors. But also the major choke point that is the intergalactic wormholes at the center of the galaxy makes it hard to travel there and back. I would love to see new long distance wormholes or maybe even random temporary intergalactic wormholes appear at stellar black holes.
Other ideas like "space dungeons" would be cool too, but a little off-topic so here is a link: (Idea thread) Space Dungeons
I agree that too many galaxies are unneeded. One main with two of three others tailored for different purposes would be plenty. I would think that more may add work to Haxus's busy
schedule.