2017-10-05 Quality Effect

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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Haxus » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:28 am

Think of building Q as the overall quality of the facility and its management, not how nicely the bricks and mortar were stacked.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Deantwo » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:28 pm

Haxus wrote:Think of building Q as the overall quality of the facility and its management, not how nicely the bricks and mortar were stacked.

Rather than just a number that says how advanced a building is, I much more prefer tools.

Essentially treat all buildings as just the building that the production is done at, the tools available in the city then determines how advanced it is. For example a city with no tools will be working slowly, but making hammers improve the manufacturing power of all mining and construction. Soldering irons mark the minimum requirement for a civilization to produce electronics.

The best part is that tools are always in constant need, they break and you have to make new ones. This neatly works into having to maintain the technological advancement by keeping the tool production running. Losing access to a tool means that the civilization might run out of the tool and regress to a lower technological stage.

Maybe more advanced tools to both unlock new advanced resources or improve existing manufacturing capabilities. For example handheld mining lasers, grav-lifters, and even cargo transporters.

Advanced tool would be interesting to have require patents, since the quality of a tool affect its durability it will determine how long it lasts.

Original post: Re: 2017-09-29 Tech Wipe
Last edited by Deantwo on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby pizzasgood » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:26 pm

I don't mind building quality affecting resource quality. It makes sense that a higher quality facility will produce hydrogen with greater purity than a low quality facility. Tools should be a factor, but they aren't the only factor. An assembly line is not really a tool in the "sold at a retail store" sense. It's a significant structure inside a factory. A higher quality factory will have less vibration in the conveyor belts, more precise robots, cleaner clean-rooms, fewer mouse droppings in the cheese, etc.

I'm not a big fan of this patent system though. I didn't like carting around tech disks, and patents seem like they're going to be even more hassle to distribute (though I haven't played with them yet and could be mistaken).

What if instead of physical items that you transport, patent access is just an empire setting? Like how we can create custom ranks for individuals, perhaps we could create custom patent profiles and then assign individual cities, planets, or even whole sectors to specific patent profiles detailing which patents they have access to. Then to change things, we just change the definition of the profile, and all the cities using that profile adapt (possibly with an implementation delay as the citizens scrub their drives). This way we avoid the hassle of transporting them to new colonies while maintaining the ability to have different locations running different patents to minimize enemy gains / incentive to capture.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby ResonKinetic » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:36 pm

Haxus wrote:Think of building Q as the overall quality of the facility and its management, not how nicely the bricks and mortar were stacked.


Sure, but building Q shouldn't affect the quality of resources that are collected initially. There's also currently a bug that would just disappear if this change was made.

If I have Q255 ore, I should have Q255 ore and that's the end of that. The end product, refined metal for example, would understandably take time to develop into something that achieves the full benefits of the original material.

There are no drawbacks to such a slight change, only positive steps forward.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Teskham » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:08 am

Deantwo wrote:The best part is that tools are always in constant need, they break and you have to make new ones. This neatly works into having to maintain the technological advancement by keeping the tool production running. Losing access to a tool means that the civilization might run out of the tool and regress to a lower technological stage.


Using this technique one could change the requirements to mine or collect basic materials. For instance magmex could require a centrifuge to collect. Eludium could require plastic (has to be an air tight container), hydrogen from the atmosphere could require refrigerate and a centrifuge, the list goes on...
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby ResonKinetic » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:07 pm

Teskham wrote:Using this technique one could change the requirements to mine or collect basic materials. For instance magmex could require a centrifuge to collect. Eludium could require plastic (has to be an air tight container), hydrogen from the atmosphere could require refrigerate and a centrifuge, the list goes on...


I like these ideas too
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Deantwo » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:03 pm

Teskham wrote:
Deantwo wrote:The best part is that tools are always in constant need, they break and you have to make new ones. This neatly works into having to maintain the technological advancement by keeping the tool production running. Losing access to a tool means that the civilization might run out of the tool and regress to a lower technological stage.

Using this technique one could change the requirements to mine or collect basic materials. For instance magmex could require a centrifuge to collect. Eludium could require plastic (has to be an air tight container), hydrogen from the atmosphere could require refrigerate and a centrifuge, the list goes on...

Yup, that is the basic idea I was thinking about.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Haxus » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:54 am

The bits of Q255 ore you find on the surface give an indication of the quality of the vein or patch or whatever it is. Industrial level extraction at the site is affected by the quality of the operation, aggregated as building Q.

Could it be more complicated than that? Personnel morale? Training levels? Equipment Q? Facility Q? Yes, it could be more complicated. Does it need to be?

Factors could be added where needed and sensible. I am not in favor of factors that become a pervasive global attribute throughout the system, as tech level was.

Tutorial videos are nearly complete, as promised earlier this year. With that out of the way, I will proceed with the revamp of buildings and cities.

The tech change was preparation for that. There are lingering issues that need attention. I plan to start there and segue into buildings.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby ResonKinetic » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:22 am

Haxus, we're not asking for something more complicated, we're asking for the separation of technology and resource quality.

The goal is to have fewer arbitrary, unnecessary NUMBERS and more focus on being able to access SOMETHING because you have access to a whole other THING, not a number.

This would thus simplify the game without losing the interesting depth that "complication" brings. In turn, this makes it easier for newcomers to understand the game, especially if implemented like Deantwo mentioned.

It's worth considering.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Deantwo » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:07 pm

Haxus wrote:The bits of Q255 ore you find on the surface give an indication of the quality of the vein or patch or whatever it is. Industrial level extraction at the site is affected by the quality of the operation, aggregated as building Q.

Not that we don't understand your view, and realistically it does make sense. But realism isn't necessarily fun gameplay.

The point is that no civilization would build a low tech factory in their new interstellar colony. You would assume that a civilization would always build the most advanced factory they can. The issue would always be importing of needed tools from the core worlds that the colony can't produce themselves.

If technology is just a number that doesn't have to be maintained we just end up with the old TL system issue of everyone having TL32 and no way to lose it. If technology can expire you have to keep producing it, or have a formal trade deal with the supplier. Saving a little bit of tech in your sea chest would be a bonus when starting over from scratch, but it would not be an instant boost back to maximum.

This is why tools might be a good way of doing it, it is a mechanic that already works fine and is easy to understand. Having tongs allow you to harvest Eludium, losing your access to tongs mean you can't harvest more Eludium.
Mining Vulcanite could require a Magmium tool, then we have a natural progression between the two. Losing access to Magmex will prevent you from making the Magmium tools needed to mine Vulcanite.
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