2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Details about updates to Shores of Hazeron

Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby expert700 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:31 pm

Ikkir Isth wrote:I would still ultimately like, at the least, patents to be the thing that take the long time, while buildings themselves take a month or 2 (if you have building 'tech', i suppose), with each citizen gathering money to buy their own limited run patents, upgrading quality when they have better resources and tools and the proper patents, and maintaining higher production and quality as long as the city has a high economy / is fed resources (with proper accommodation for resource harvesting jobs so they dont need a hive world to maintain, aka mines in a moon should still be able to get high quality).
-snip-


I think having patents be the part that takes the long thing would be a good idea. Since everything can be made with Q1 stuff now, including warp drives, it should at least take longer than 45 minutes to research warp 9. As much as I enjoy easy warp, it worries me to think that a remotely experienced empire could probably get warp 9 in a day or two.

EDIT: A jump drive that can teleport your ship somewhere like a stargate as endgame transport is a pretty cool idea. The hyper drive for teleporting anywhere would be very cool too, although I must admit that would be slightly overpowered. That would have to be limited somehow.
Last edited by expert700 on Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Teskham » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:35 pm

Ikkir Isth wrote:I'd love stuff to get more involved than that, of course (patenting higher QL metal requires X points, you spend research on that to allocate points, but if you go spelunking and bring an artifact in, or somehow harvest metal of a certain quality and slot it in to your university to research -and destroy-, you get bonus points allocation to that research line. Apply to anything and everything down the line - bio research via gene scans, plant samples, etc. Combat data from encounters, Habitability reports / scan data, etc etc etc.

To piggyback off of this research logs would be a way to implement this. ie lets say you stumble upon a ring world your character or an officer could right a research log for "artificial wormhole construction" this new item would be a gateway to the Stargate patent, and this is just a crude example feasibly a system like this could be used to study advanced ships, space anomalies, natural phenomena, or even just basic prerequisites to patent research.

expert700 wrote:EDIT: A jump drive that can teleport your ship somewhere like a stargate as endgame transport is a pretty cool idea. The hyper drive for teleporting anywhere would be very cool too, although I must admit that would be slightly overpowered. That would have to be limited somehow.

this could be implemented in way that similar to the movie Deep Horizon where entering the "Jump Realm" spawns all sorts of baddies on and around your ship that you and the crew must deal with.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Haxus » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:12 pm

I did not intend a stargate to be a building. Perhaps we were imagining different things. I was thinking of something like a man-made wormhole, only made by the FTL drive of a ship. Then that ship and others could go through the stargate (both ways?) for the duration of the gate.

I plan to increase the time needed to develop patents, pending more feedback from players. The low level patents could stay short, to show people how they work. The more complex patents could take quite a long time.

I did consolidate a lot of patents that came out of the first pass through the data. I suppose there are a few others that could be clumped together. I will look through the list for likely candidates.

Air from Water and Hydrogen from Water could be the same patent for electrolysis. I heard that one mentioned.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Haxus » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:17 pm

It would be good to somehow develop a culture of secrecy toward patents, instead of giving them away to every new player. Perhaps that will happen when they take longer to develop, idk.

What is the motivation to not give them away?

If they could not easily be stolen, then possessing high level patents might make an empire desirable for new players to join, instead of taking the time to develop it all themselves. That might be the strongest motivator.

You could even isolate production of things like warp drives into the chain of command of specific people. That way new players could build cities and govern areas without ever having access to the patents.

Then your commanders might be motivated to erase captured cities that have that knowledge, so the technology can be regulated and controlled.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby expert700 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:28 pm

Haxus wrote:It would be good to somehow develop a culture of secrecy toward patents, instead of giving them away to every new player. Perhaps that will happen when they take longer to develop, idk.

What is the motivation to not give them away?

If they could not easily be stolen, then possessing high level patents might make an empire desirable for new players to join, instead of taking the time to develop it all themselves. That might be the strongest motivator.

You could even isolate production of things like warp drives into the chain of command of specific people. That way new players could build cities and govern areas without ever having access to the patents.


If patents can be spread between empires, they inevitably will be. Too many members of the Hazeron community are too nice to not give players advanced patents. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just an observation. I have a feeling that within a few days of the first players reaching the most advanced patents they'll have spread to every empire that wants them.

I'm all for making advanced technology as hard to get as possible. I think having that challenge would be fun, it would give you a goal beyond just higher stat numbers. If only one person needs to get those patents and then they can be spread across the galaxy, I worry that every patent would propagate to every empire very quickly.

I believe a mechanism to prevent patents from being easily spread throughout empires would be needed. Personally I think that should take the form of just completely disallowing patents made in another empire from being used in your cities, but I recognize that there would probably be many people taking issue with a mechanic like that.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Ikkir Isth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:31 pm

expert700 wrote:
Haxus wrote:It would be good to somehow develop a culture of secrecy toward patents, instead of giving them away to every new player. Perhaps that will happen when they take longer to develop, idk.

What is the motivation to not give them away?

If they could not easily be stolen, then possessing high level patents might make an empire desirable for new players to join, instead of taking the time to develop it all themselves. That might be the strongest motivator.

You could even isolate production of things like warp drives into the chain of command of specific people. That way new players could build cities and govern areas without ever having access to the patents.


If patents can be spread between empires, they inevitably will be. Too many members of the Hazeron community are too nice to not give players advanced patents. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just an observation. I have a feeling that within a few days of the first players reaching the most advanced patents they'll have spread to every empire that wants them.


Note: this is one of the reasons I want limited run patents and to still have development time even if you do get a patent of something big - the only thing it should do is increase your research points, not be an instant upgrade.
And of course, if you are buying a lot of limited run, high quality, EXPENSIVE patents... you are going to be dumping a LOT of cronos, which might matter with a fixed economy.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Staines » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:35 pm

@Haxus
After discussing it a little on Discord today... It seems that most people would work together inside empires if there was, essentially, a form of "states rights" that protected their demesne from the predations of the Emperor. We do need much better mechanics to be able to work together before it's viable beyond groups like Syndicate.

It needs to be a "bottom up" cooperation thing, rather than a "top down" enforcement - otherwise no one would want to join your Empire, no?

Don't worry too much about patent secrecy right now though... look at it this way, everyone in game right now is advancing at the same rate, so you essentially have a year to deal with that issue. It just needs to be fixed before a wider launch.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby ResonKinetic » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:36 pm

Why can't we harvest resources at face value without buildings modifying the quality? In general, this is essentially the TL system under a different name that forces you to wait for your buildings to catch up. Making that change would complement the new multipliers for progression.

Finding and maintaining Q255 resources is enough work itself.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Phenoix12 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:30 am

All this talk of patents and how to make empires want to keep them to themselves more makes me wonder... is it possible to set it up so that empires can invent somewhat unique tech?

Like two different empires develop gravity drives but the gravity drive from one empire is slightly different then the other. e.g. one empires gravity drives are more fuel efficient while the other's allow for higher speeds.

It could either be random or allow for empires to define what they want the tech to be developed as. Probably though a 'points' system like making a new race... except for things like gravity drives, shields, power plants, ect.

That would make empires more likely to hold onto their good cutting edge technology and not just hand it out since it would mean basically handing out your specialy designed stuff to those who could use it against you.

Of course empires should be allowed to make multiple variety of the same tech. So an empire can invent an engine with a lot of power and fuel efficiency, but low top speed. And an engine that has super high cruising speed but is very susceptible to damage.

Give us some more engine types to select from the list of modules for our ship.

Probably add some kind of reverse engineering mechanic so other empires could potentially steal your tech if they get their hands on your ship... though legal means or otherwise.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby ResonKinetic » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:51 am

Also, can't patents be automatically traded throughout a system? It's a real annoyance to have to carry each patent you need to establish a colony.

Again, it's really important for quality to remain unaffected by development. Quality and technology (progression in what you can build) should be separate and unaffected by things like building Q.
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