2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Details about updates to Shores of Hazeron

Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Ikkir Isth » Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:59 pm

Regardless of anything else, we have a few problems that need addressed pretty quickly in the new system:

Airport repair shops need to work - its very easy to get a ship above the Q of your repair shop and be unable to do anything at all, and be forced to repair a ship by hand. Since you can repair a ship by hand anyway (assuming you have all the panels), Repair Shops need to at least work with any ship, whether its by component Q reduction based on shop Q and material Q, increasing in time and cost, or whatever.

Also there that bug where they don't change out modules.

Other than that, the issue with the building Q + 0 / 2 on certain patent runs OR actual process runs (hydrogen from atmosphere) create some major issues. Like, say, you were researching a patent on how to mine eludium. Since the only thing in that process is the building QL, you get a very low patent to begin with. And then it divides that by 2 with the bug. Unlike a lot of other things, its impossible to have a higher resource to bump up the patent (research process does consume an eludium resource to slot into the division, basically). The quickest work around of course would be making it take eludium/the resource from the site/atmosphere/etc to slot in for quality comparison, which means you could only research the process on a moon (not exactly ideal but it would work), OR you could do patents the other way, where you need to upgrade them over time (with each patent upgrade taking longer, since I know you were talking about patent gating anyway, which could be done even without the limited run patents idea or changing how building QL works, etc).
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Ikkir Isth » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:16 pm

Oh, I've got the perfect analogy for this situation: buildings Quality level progression is a quest given to players that they can't fulfill.

Process- "Boy, I sure wish we had better technology and a bigger/better factory"

Players -"Oh, that sounds neat! How can I help you do that? Heres some high grade tools I got from trading with a friend."

Process- "Sorry, I only believe in free-range tools"

Players- "Oookay, well, how about all these patents? Will this give you a better idea how to make stuff?"

Process- "Eh, sorta but not really, still got all the same tools, that just means if somethings is too good for our factory we gotta toss it in the junker. I guess if you manage some technology we could use that but we are goin just as fast as everyone else here so tough luck there."

Players-"Well, can I make you happier or more efficient? What can I do to make it easier for you to work?"

Process- "Much as we love not being on fire, sad to say nothing can really make upgrade our stuff faster. Matter of paperwork, you see."

Players-"I'll dig up rare ores! I'll scour the galaxy for rare materials! Anything!"

Process- "I like rare stuff just like anyone else but its not gonna help too much ya know, still gotta wait for the paperwork and tool orders and all that."

Players-"Money! I'll. Give. You. MONEY! Lots of it!"

Process-"Money? Whats that? No one uses that around here, sounds worthless to me. Well, maybe those smart guys use it and stack it to see how high they can get while they push those buttons and print out a patent, can't say they ever stack it very high though."

Players-"Aaaaarrrrgh"
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Chiefwaffles » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:11 pm

Sooo just popping in:
I still think exploration-based progression is a good idea. (Link's to a topic I made about this a while ago and is probably pretty rough but contains the gist of it - exploration based progression. Everything else in that post isn't nearly as important.)

Because I like the idea of progression being based on having access to better things. What's more exciting? A +2 Wormhole Drive or a freaking Stargate Drive? A Rifle x2.5 or a Laser Rifle?
Progression based on getting actually better, different things simply feels more rewarding and engaging to the player. Patents seem like a step in the right direction here.


So instead of forcing players to wait - either through the old R&D process or the new Q process - for largely "the same thing but better" or access to content, I believe it'd be better to simply have players play the game for access to new technologies. Explore for ruins, space hulks, villages for access to cool new technologies and better materials to actually make that tech. Instead of having just a standard multiplier for Q, have more levels of technology. Pulse Rifle, Plasma Rifle, etc..
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Deantwo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:49 am

Chiefwaffles wrote:Sooo just popping in:
I still think exploration-based progression is a good idea.

Just popping in to re-suggest your old idea was the only thing you did last time too.
See: (Idea thread post) Re: "Remove TL" megathread

We of course want some exploration of ancient ruins left behind by the ringworld builders, and there should be rewards for this exploration. But making exploration the only form of technological advancement just sounds weird in a galactic empire building game, and your suggestion doesn't solves the issues of the TL or QL systems.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Chiefwaffles » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:12 am

Oh, I'm well aware what I did last time. I'll pop in whenever I feel my input is relevant. Like now. During an overhaul of the tech system.


(EDIT: To be clear, this is me arguing for "a technological progression system based on unlocking new and better items/blueprints/schematics/whatever instead of incremental increases in effectiveness; based on exploration." I honestly probably shouldn't have linked that thread I had made.)

making exploration the only form of technological advancement just sounds weird in a galactic empire building game

Sure. It could be seen as a bit weird to have an entirely exploration-based tech progression system. Disregarding the fact that it doesn't have to be the only way to progress, you should consider the alternatives.

Right now and before it's largely just time. You had to wait for money and/or for the RnG in the R&D processes to decide you get a tech up. Now you simply just wait for the Q to go up. (Finding new resources is a factor too, but I think that concept should stay relatively the same no matter where the tech system goes.)

I may be missing something, but what other ways can you gate progression? Resources (including money), Time, and what else? The way I see it, the best way to incorporate a technology system is to include the rest of the game. Players can hunt for resources and tech, playing the game in the process.
A tool-based "supply chain" progression system like Deantwo suggests is also an option (and not mutually exclusive with exploration-based progression) but I feel lackluster by itself.


your suggestion doesn't solves the issues of the TL or QL systems.

But it does? By largely eliminating the concept. Resources could still potentially have QL to encourage looking for the best resources, but other than that ideally there would be no TL or QL system above that. Like what I said in my post before yours.

Instead of having Q affect the effectiveness of things or locking things behind building+tool+etc. Q, you simply have better things. Like I said, it's more fun for a player to have an entirely new, better, type of rifle like the Laser Rifle instead of a regular rifle that's just 2.5x as good. Just model the game like this. Have technology level manifest in new separate upgrade items.

This doesn't have to be done via exploration, but I think it'd be a good way to start. Have the player find the blueprints to a new, better, FTL drive. Have them search the galaxy for new tech. Maybe even have some tech "locked' behind having a colony there (by stating that the item requires dedicated on-site research, excavation, etc..) to have the players making colonies across the galaxy.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Phenoix12 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:02 pm

Chiefwaffles wrote:Like I said, it's more fun for a player to have an entirely new, better, type of rifle like the Laser Rifle instead of a regular rifle that's just 2.5x as good.


Can't it be both? It makes more sense to me for it to be somewhere between these two things. That as we research we gain access to newer better tech but also could sink research into improving the 'older' tech.

Because, using the example of firearms, while most would say that a laser rifle is better then a regular solid bullet rifle in truth they can both be just as effective as each-other or even the regular one being more effective in some situations.

Quick example is that lasers are mass-less and deal damage typically with the extreme heat of the laser itself while bullets have mass and deal damage by piercing though. In a realistic situation sometimes that laser is going to do nothing while the regular old gun is going to be a whole lot better.

So if the game system just encourages us to abandon the old tech the moment we get the new one I feel we're wasting a lot of potential. So some middle of the road where you can learn the new tech while keep researching improvements to the old would be the best.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Akynos » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:28 am

ResonKinetic wrote:Haxus, we're not asking for something more complicated, we're asking for the separation of technology and resource quality.

The goal is to have fewer arbitrary, unnecessary NUMBERS and more focus on being able to access SOMETHING because you have access to a whole other THING, not a number.

This would thus simplify the game without losing the interesting depth that "complication" brings. In turn, this makes it easier for newcomers to understand the game, especially if implemented like Deantwo mentioned.

It's worth considering.


This.

Also quoting Reson's post about enabling patents to be traded between systems. Or remove them completely. Having to work between patents and Q numbers is a nightmare right now.

Lots of other games focus on making end-game features harder by adding restrictions, but these are simple to visualise. You want warp? You need A, B and C. It becomes confusing when it becomes A with quality of minimum 233 and the building that creates it has quality 240, B has quality 2xx...etc.

KISS principle.

Love the idea of low quality high tech spacecrafts and inversely - it would introduce a nice bit of variety and customisation.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Deantwo » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:19 am

Akynos wrote:Lots of other games focus on making end-game features harder by adding restrictions, but these are simple to visualise. You want warp? You need A, B and C. It becomes confusing when it becomes A with quality of minimum 233 and the building that creates it has quality 240, B has quality 2xx...etc.

That is why we were pushing for the removal of the old TL system, and in the new QL system you are able to produce anything as long as you have the resources. So it is a partial win with the new system.

Akynos wrote:Love the idea of low quality high tech spacecrafts and inversely - it would introduce a nice bit of variety and customisation.

I don't know if it would add customization, but it would definitely give more variation between ships. Players that focus on getting high quality resources will have better quality ships, even if the player can make low tech ships.

The only real issue I don't have a good solution for is how to "limit" the size of spacecraft an empire can make. Maybe no limit would work better than a time-based tech limit, simply have the building cost/time increase exponentially so smaller ships are worth building. But preferably some kind of tech resources would be better.
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Re: 2017-10-05 Quality Effect

Postby Ikkir Isth » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:24 am

So... another real problem I just ran into:
Buy a siphon bay to slot in manually (since my airport repair shop still cant do it yet), cannot slot it in, module of siphon QL is 74.
Ok, I'll just slot in the CnC module.

Go to buy CnC module... because of the resources that go into it, the level they are being built at is... 61.
So, since I can't make stuff at a set level, nor can I trick it into building lower anyway in the city since it discards due to obsolete product, I have to go make a new city, keep it disconnected route wise, only add in the patent to make a siphon bay to Q63, and then build it that way.
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