2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby Teskham » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:15 pm

Would it be possible to add a filter to universities to only show Available patents based on resources in city inventory, or/and patents that haven't been researched yet?
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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby Ikkir Isth » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:05 pm

1Duane wrote:
Deantwo wrote:If it were to affect quality though, I would suggest the route of static "+10 quality" rather than weird math.

But then there's no reason to increase tool quality. Weird math just adds more to the game than a +10 ever could. There's also no reason to give a bonus for having required tools, unless you were going to make their quality matter. There's got to be a middle ground that deepens the game without breaking it.


Middle ground, more specifically (and what I was alluding to before) would be (Building + Material + (Tool + factor))/3, where a factor of +10 was chosen out of nowhere. In addition, tools rate of timer reduction could be increased by increasing base harvesting times and having tools scale and bring this down more, bringing up run harvests to, say, 100, and having tools scale to add more bonus / per, etc. Theres a lot of things that can matter with tools, even possibly having higher QL tools/materials = buildings upgrade faster, etc.

As far as having actual other material tools, there is precedent of course (metal, magmium, vulcium knives, and each could have a different bonus), but, then again, those are weapons used as tools, and to a certain extent, if you are researching one type of tool and then unlock the second, why work on increasing the first to max QL, unless theres a specific use? Once we get to that point, what does max QL of an inferior type actually mean? (though, if theres an actual economy, having premium tools would make more sense though, especially if it basically costs to do anything and you have to factor it cost vs worth on any place you send expensive tools to... and of course I still want metal/magmium/vulcium hulls, in addition to whatever other composites or options we get later, to have different uses each, instead of just being about price and overall power.)
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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby QuakeIV » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:25 pm

All I would want to suggest is some kind of process that lets you up a resources QL with for instance a 6.67% loss per QL level gained. This compounds such that trying to jack up QL by +100 would result in only about 0.1% of the original resources surviving to the new QL level. (literally i just did 1 - (0.001)^1/100 to back compute the percentage)

In war you need to mass produce stuff, because gigantic stockpiles are actually kindof fragile in this game. People steal stuff, stuff gets blown up, stuff flies into suns, stuff gets darkmattered out of existence, et cetera. This means that trying to up the QL level on resources is legitimately impractical for all intents and purposes from an industrial perspective, but it allows people to slowly produce quality stuff in their home system if they really want to, or or in general allows them to make use of inferior resources in exchange for a greatly reduced production volume.

It frustrates me that people claim that any system like this would remove all incentive for expansion because 'resources are infinite'. Yes, you can mine something forever, but if you really want to wait five years to make a reasonably size fleet, and then have syndicate steal it from you in the first fifteen minutes of the war, then congratulations, you just died like almost every other empire in the game that tried to fight syndicate without a basic understanding of the mechanics.
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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby Deantwo » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:19 am

QuakeIV wrote:In war you need to mass produce stuff, because gigantic stockpiles are actually kindof fragile in this game. People steal stuff, stuff gets blown up, stuff flies into suns, stuff gets darkmattered out of existence, et cetera. This means that trying to up the QL level on resources is legitimately impractical for all intents and purposes from an industrial perspective, but it allows people to slowly produce quality stuff in their home system if they really want to, or or in general allows them to make use of inferior resources in exchange for a greatly reduced production volume.

It frustrates me that people claim that any system like this would remove all incentive for expansion because 'resources are infinite'. Yes, you can mine something forever, but if you really want to wait five years to make a reasonably size fleet, and then have syndicate steal it from you in the first fifteen minutes of the war, then congratulations, you just died like almost every other empire in the game that tried to fight syndicate without a basic understanding of the mechanics.

You yourself just pointed out that you most of all need to mass produce when at war. That means that while not at war (~99% of the time) there is no reason to have production faster than the need to build a single ship and fly round looking for better... wait resources are all potential maximum quality, so resources anywhere but home are useless.

Your idea of quality/quantity ratio is only useful if we assume a lot about how the player is going to use way too many resources at once. And in the end, what does the quality even matter? The only place quality currently matter is in spacecraft production, and there it is easy to reach the mid-range with average resources.
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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby QuakeIV » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:33 am

The point, my good sir, is that you cant build enough production after the war has already started, thats generally too time consuming. It would take weeks or months. In the very least you would need appropriate worlds pre-explored, which means the empires will still want to explore. All empires that wish to be able to handle a war will have a strong incentive to explore.

The reason why you would want the QL improvement system in the first place, is to allow smaller empires to build highly capable ships (in terms of speed and defensive ability) without having to exert comparable efforts to that of a much larger empire. Basically, they could get ships quickly and in large numbers if they put in a huge amount of effort, but there would also be a niche for people who don't want to go all the way.

If small empires have to explore hundreds of systems single handedly, then that will never happen in most cases. This is bourne out by looking at most small empires out there. Space is littered with the graves of single-digit player count empires that never got past single digit tech levels.

If those small empires at least had a minimal ability to make a small amount of cool ships, that would make the game a lot more interesting for the loners who don't end up having the time to grind through hundreds of systems. And anyways, it would take ages and ages for them to produce anything of value unless they found at least decently good resources. So they would still want to explore, just not as much.
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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby 1Duane » Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:38 am

Deantwo wrote:And in the end, what does the quality even matter? The only place quality currently matter is in spacecraft production, and there it is easy to reach the mid-range with average resources.


That's everyone's point but yours. Quality should matter if Tech Level is gone as a scale. Everything should have a quality that matters, and those qualities (Components in weapons, tools in extraction, advanced tools in production) should all help feed into the qualities of everything else. Spaceship repair shouldn't be the only thing with a quality requirement. It's really silly.

Haven and Hearth does it just fine - everything has a quality based on its constituent resources and buildings used for manufacture - they just don't have a hard cap. While you could do that in a game like Hazeron, Haven and Hearth resets ~once a year because past that year, it's hard for new players to do anything or get into the game.

Uncapped, Syndicate or whichever largest faction would just use Warp 22 or whatever analog they'd scaled to, to be the only faction in the universe, because they can.
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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby AnrDaemon » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:51 am

1Duane wrote:Quality should matter

Why? I see a lot of "should" thrown around, but only Haxus said once, WHY it should? And that was easily objectionable "why".
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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby 1Duane » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:08 pm

AnrDaemon wrote:
1Duane wrote:Quality should matter

Why? I see a lot of "should" thrown around, but only Haxus said once, WHY it should? And that was easily objectionable "why".

Because if the only thing that has a quality that matters are space ships, there's no way to scale anything else interesting into gameplay. If handheld weapons are only better off of alternate models, the only progression is "Having the best one." with no variety. Defensively, then, there's no variety because you only need to wear whichever armor is best versus that best thing. It's probably all you'll ever encounter.

Creatures have no variance in resistance, and can't scale to "Boss" or even "Difficult" proportions because handheld weapons are just death beams that normally twoshot anything. There could very easily be "Harder to fight" creatures or creatures with varied resistances to give points to using those other weapon types.

Mining tools currently only need to exist. If you could limit yourself in quality to only ever producing Q1 Garbage everything, or push yourself to Q255 mining tools just to prove you can, you'd get the same output results regardless, so there's no real reason to do either. There's no variance in the gameplay. There's no "This will give me better quality resources, but this will mine resources faster." tradeoffs basically anywhere in the game, even though the systems could very well already exist.

Land vehicle quality, same thing. I think there's variance in hitpoints(?) but nothing for speed, weapon strength(did tanks ever get added?), etc. Same for fighters and transport ships on vessels. Sub vehicle quality, ammo quality. There's plenty of room for expansion and various things to add off of each of them. It's almost heartless not to considering how much character the game already has.

You can perform surgery on people, but even the Q1 garbage medicines will help save them if you botch it and almost kill them. The Q1 garbage medical table they're on, in the garbage Q1 hospital they're in, in the garbage Q1 town on the garbage Q1 planet don't negatively contribute to the outcome of the surgery at all.

Underwater cities can be forced to survive off of Q1 oxygen and Q1 food if not for the fact that the farms will now level up automatically. They'll never be tired of eating rotting garbage material that pops out of horrid soil and pestilent water. It's ridiculous.

Why is a stupid question when 'Why not' covers the entire rest of the game.
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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby AnrDaemon » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:21 pm

The very "scaling" is broken in principle.
Remove "scaling", and there's no longer any "best" option, only "variety".
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Re: 2017-09-25 Tech Level Nerf

Postby 1Duane » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:54 pm

AnrDaemon wrote:The very "scaling" is broken in principle.
Remove "scaling", and there's no longer any "best" option, only "variety".


Add scaling and balance around it and you have a "game". It's broken in principle because the systems that would exist around scaling only exist in your mind, and you don't want it, so obviously it's imbalanced. It's easy to add in ways that aren't broken, and easier to balance if it is broken.

Scaling also adds variety. Even if it's "q50 ammo +2 damage" "q255 ammo +10 damage". Thresholds give something to strive for. Variety is something to work towards. If it wasn't, food variety bonuses wouldn't exist.

The game should want you to have more, but not require it. So you can make goals and progress through them. You know, like a civilization rising out from a camp to the stars.
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