Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Details about updates to Shores of Hazeron

Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby Edward Teach » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:26 am

Cthulhu wrote:1; Travel Direct to system 1 Au from outermost planetary orbit (ship would warp in under current model and then travel to 1 AU from the outermost planetary orbit radius, or if already within it stop and cycle next order.).

2; Travel Direct to system and orbit host star (Same as the model we now have).


I think the same thing could probably be accomplished by having the Travel Direct command never automatically orbit the star and people can add a command to orbit if they want to but I agree completely. This will probably stop the current wave of sundives as well.
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Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby Ivan » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:27 am

Celarious wrote:You are the one who seems to be extremely hostile. Not only telling us how a change must be immediately reverted, but also claiming how Hazeron has somehow become "exactly like" every other space game with a tiny change.


Never said the change has to be reverted, just that I would like that? If I would like that why would I not bea allowed to say so and how is that hostile?

"If the system is not loaded and if a ship that is near an exact same coordinate as you pass through while warping and it cannot detect you, then you aren't really there, you are pretty much by definition in another instance."

Except a ship cannot be at the exact same co-ordinates as a warping ship, because warp would never allow for such a thing to happen, even in the old system. The warping ship would leave the system far too fast. Can you provide evidence that a ship cannot detect the warping ship?


I said "near", as in close by, I have litteraly discovered ships at ingame warp. The shield get raised briefly and, then u can go back in reverse direction at lower warp or convetional drives to search for the ship (or use 300 million sensor range ship) But that is even besides the discussion. Point was the ship cannot detect other ships or other things, which Haxus said himself.

"if there is no loading screen how could you possible be loaded into the system to be able to use that order to orbit one of it's bodies?"

Because that's no different to the old system. As Reson said, in the old system, you'd be in perpetual limbo, without the ability to even click the "Order" button. And as an addition to this, how do you know what Hazeron loading is like? Maybe Haxus has implemented deep space loading or something like that? Even still, the "Orbit over" exploit should not have been used, and the fact that you relied on it and want the change to be reverted because of that is not a good thing.


Did u miss the part where I also tested it and what you are claiming is just plain untrue? (unless you mean real hypothetical warp or something else, which would be besides the discussion) You were loaded into every single system. I have literally used that order hundreds of times. Now you're apparently loaded into only one system per sector (tested it), which extends over all other sectors in that sector. So yes you are loaded in the wrong sector, and therefor not physically present to other ships when warping in the "territory" of the other systems in that sector. Which was my point and is true.


Sorry if I came across as hostile, but your arguments are that you can't see things on the warp journey. Considering how fast warp is, you shouldn't be able to see things, and you wouldn't in the old system because you'd be in limbo, and you shouldn't be able to scan a system while warping unless you have the best scanners that have ever been invented.


Apology accepted. Ok perhaps planets shouldn't be visible with 5 million range ship, from system edge, but should be with my 300 million sensor range SWACS ship. But I did see those things in the old system, as evey sector did get loaded, apart from when two system transitions happened very quickly one after another. So what you are saying is again literally untrue.

Agreed about the scanning, but then scanning should go back to planets within scanning range, this has not much to do with warp. I however did not talk about scanning but just seeing the planet with the order (which i agree is kind of cheating, and probably shouldn't be possible)
Look at this from another side. It means far less limbo craziness while warping, without leaving and entering the loading screen every 2 seconds. It allows for people to continue playing their game table games or running around a ship. To most players, warp is far less annoying now


I agree with that or at least that most people will like that, and as i said it would also be better for Haxus and his budget/servers, but my preferences are such that i think "realness/ continuous physical presence" is more important than no loading screens, I was even planning on putting that in my recommendation on steam for hazeron (however having hazeron with "instances/hyperspace/whatever you wanna call it" is still preferable over having no Hazeron, which i also said already)

Also it seems to me that those who have most extensively used these things will miss them the most.

Your preference is the opposite. Haxus shares your preference, and therefore you are lucky. and I am not, that is all :)

Btw for no Negative space check Star citizen video at 2:08. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGWggc7KjJE

As for the ships I liek functioanlity and no negative space more than prettyness. Combination of functionality, no negative space and prettyness would ofcourse be better. So if instead of sliders we could place systems in some way, even just draw visible or invisible (in the final ship) volumes in specific cor chose shapes that represent the systems and can't overlap and add to total volume, it would kind of add some puzzle aspect I think. Now it is just taken from the entire ship volume and the puzzle is reduced to sliders. I really loved having to think about where I can add a little more sensors or fuel tanks and how to maximise ship performance , have specific HP, firepower or get that 300 million sensor range and yet make it able to stay in deepspace for a month or more of days, while still being realistically walkable/accesible and for combat ships covered with hull. That was really fun.

Maybe I just came to love my ships alot, you should come visit and examine my ships and maybe you will understand why I like them so much.
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Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby Celarious » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:34 am

Ivan wrote:Maybe I just came to love my ships alot, you should come visit and examine my ships and maybe you will understand why I like them so much.


Probably, most of my ships were borrowed designs or cubes with the old system, so I didn't really get too attached haha

I mean, it still is possible to get very minimal "negative space", just requires a bit of effort and I'm too lazy, so I make cubic interiors even if the hull is the most complex and fancy thing
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Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby Phenoix12 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:13 pm

Haxus wrote:Disjoint parts. All hull and landing gear parts must touch each other to form one single contiguous blob.


Everyone keeps talking about the new warp stuff which is awesome.

But this one little quote makes me sad because now one ship idea of mine is no longer doable. Now I can't make the giant sword shaped ship surrounded by floating diamond lazer things.
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Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby xlc2020 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:47 pm

I've had 7 sundives since the update. The ships had been doing fine for weeks.

Edit: All but one dive was in a supergiant system.
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Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby Deantwo » Fri Mar 10, 2017 4:30 pm

I am happy to say that the warp changes worked exactly as I had theorized, and it feels pretty good to use.
Ships simply don't leave the system they are in until warp is disengaged or another sector is entered.

This would accually in theory make it easier to follow other ships in warp too. Since they won't leave your scene as often.

A few issues I see with this is mostly that ship consoles will show the wrong system name while warping. Could just replace system name with sector relative coordinates, so we can better navigate.

Ivan wrote:I said "near", as in close by, I have litteraly discovered ships at ingame warp. The shield get raised briefly and, then u can go back in reverse direction at lower warp or convetional drives to search for the ship (or use 300 million sensor range ship) But that is even besides the discussion. Point was the ship cannot detect other ships or other things, which Haxus said himself.

I see what you mean, but we really need better ways to search for ships than super sensors during warp speed patrol.

If the idea of being in another scene is that horrible, we can just ask Haxus to disable sensors while warp is engaged. That should "solve" all your issues with being worried about not detecting things because they are in another scene. Not like sensors would realistically be all that useful when you are traveling faster than light anyway.
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Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby Onepercent » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:36 pm

Staines wrote:Legit good update, solves most of the problems with warp...
I'm a little bit worried about a few different angles for possible exploits in those mechanics though.


If you're sticking with the current tech system, you might want to think about changing warp to be 1 Factor per 2 TL, so that people lower down the tech line can get access to low warp. The difference between having Wormhole and Warp drive is extreme, and having low WF factors to help in locating higher QL materials would be supremely beneficial to up and coming empires. Having Warp WF1 start at TL16 might be the way to go.

Hazeron is a social game, and wormhole drives are pretty antisocial, and right now people are stuck with them for too long. Warp drive is like the Singularity in terms of empire development - currently, once you hit TL24 it can take a couple of weeks to get TL32, even if you spend ages learning the game and building up to TL24.


Either this or a third method of FTL travel like stargates.

As a solution to Ivans points; Haxus, if it is true that the new "sector" is a legitimate scene, make it possible for multiplayer to be present in that instance then, so then we can see other ships or starbases.
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Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby Jorn Stones » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:16 am

Deantwo wrote:I see what you mean, but we really need better ways to search for ships than super sensors during warp speed patrol.

If the idea of being in another scene is that horrible, we can just ask Haxus to disable sensors while warp is engaged. That should "solve" all your issues with being worried about not detecting things because they are in another scene. Not like sensors would realistically be all that useful when you are traveling faster than light anyway.


It's not really the point of wether or not ships at warp should be able to detect things in the first place, but before these changes that was pretty much the only way to even be able to find ships tucked away somewhere in deep space. With that possibility gone ships can hide in deep space wherever they want without ever being found.
Just park it in the middle of a route travelled by 5 or so automated ships and often travelled on by players? No problem, they'll never see your ship being there.

Looking at who is gaining the most out of the warp changes; its pirate-style empires like the Hegemony. Like everyone else, they can now effectively travel faster through the galaxy. But, now warp is also an instant escape button, where you will simply instantly leave the system you are in if you engage your warp 9. So going after them while they are taking your planets? don't bother. They'll easily see you coming when you drop out 4 million meters from target and be gone long before you can finish that sublight trip. And with the lack of sun braking using in-system warp isn't going to get you anywhere any faster either, since you will easily overshoot at such high speeds. And to top it all off they can just disengage somewhere in deep space without any risk of being found.

That all really is what bothers me the most about the warp changes. Losing every last bit of ability to effectively defend again warp-attackers or to find their ships. Not that it was that great with the old system but at least there was some ability..



And to make things even worse... 3 of my automated ships already ended up sundiving. Great... -_-
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Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby Deantwo » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:37 am

Onepercent of Borg wrote:As a solution to Ivans points; Haxus, if it is true that the new "sector" is a legitimate scene, make it possible for multiplayer to be present in that instance then, so then we can see other ships or starbases.

As I attempted to explain in my last post, it is not a "sector instance", it is simply that you don't exit a system while warp is engaged.

When you load into a new sector, you are actually loading into the nearest solar system scene and simply not leaving it until you either disengage warp or leave the sector.

Jorn Stones wrote:It's not really the point of wether or not ships at warp should be able to detect things in the first place, but before these changes that was pretty much the only way to even be able to find ships tucked away somewhere in deep space. With that possibility gone ships can hide in deep space wherever they want without ever being found.
Just park it in the middle of a route travelled by 5 or so automated ships and often travelled on by players? No problem, they'll never see your ship being there.

Don't get me started on the idiocy of hiding in deep space. Before it was the stupidest way of hiding a ship, since as you nicely pointed out, random ships passing by would find you. Hiding in deep space now being easier is a consequence, but it wasn't impossible to hide before either.

If they had just hidden in ground clutter on random uninhabited moons, they would never have been found and only suffered minor atmospheric damage. With the new changes to streamlined hulls of new spacecraft, this even becomes a damage-less way of hiding, hell submersible ships could hide other water.

Jorn Stones wrote:Looking at who is gaining the most out of the warp changes; its pirate-style empires like the Hegemony. Like everyone else, they can now effectively travel faster through the galaxy. But, now warp is also an instant escape button, where you will simply instantly leave the system you are in if you engage your warp 9. ...

The ability to escape combat has become easier, I agree. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, maybe to engage warp your ship should have to be moving at a specific speed, such as 90% of C or something. And if you exit warp with the same speed, approach to the destination system would feel more natural since you will be deaccelerating rather than stopping early.
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Re: Update 2017-03-09 FTL Drive and Warp Drives

Postby Staines » Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:14 am

Warp has always been more or less an instant escape button, with some rare exceptions...

There really does need to be some form of interdiction device, and personally I think Warp should be impossible within a few million km of a star, depending on the stars magnitude and where the outer planets are. It should be a slow down or anything, just, instant warp disengagement...
All of this has happened before, and will happen again.
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